A good question came up after class today. All of the cases we discussed happened at public schools (Tinker, Fraser, Hazelwood, Kincaid and Hosty cases). What about private schools, both private grade schools and universities? Do students have First Amendment rights at those institutions? The short answer is no -- or, put another way, they have only the First Amendment rights that the private institution allows.
So, question for you: what was your high school experience like, in terms of school authority? Is it more like what the Supreme Court envisioned in Tinker (students don't shed their rights at the schoolhouse gates), or is it more like Fraser and Hazelwood (in favor of more school authority)?
Consider this question and include whether you attended a public or private high school. You may also share an experience that is relevant to these education cases we discussed today. Also, please be sure to include your class: 9:30 or 12:30.
35 comments:
Well, I went to a public school and the administration there was pretty tight. We had SISD police officers walking the halls sometimes, which is you would think that I live in a rough neighborhood, but I don't I live in the suburbs near a pretty economically rich part of town. Rules were to always be followed or you paid the consequences. Skirts and shorts had to be a certain length, hair had to be a certain length, no piercing or tatoos, shirts and to be a certain length. Honestly I couldn't wait to get out of high school, so I didn't have to follow their rules.
--Shammara Polk (9:30)
I went to a public high school and the regulations weren't too strict. We were encouraged to speak during class. On top of that we got away with a lot, including pranks. Teachers knew when the end of the year came to expect some crazy pranks (including some sexually explicit ones). Of course if you were caught you lost your privilege to walk at graduation. My senior year we were the first girls to pull a prank which consisted of streaking in underwear through the commons (I was not involved; I only helped plan the event). Only 2 were caught and were just reprimanded. So, this goes to show the faculty would set rules and restrictions but were also lenient to a certain extent because it was expected every year. As for speech I never experienced anyone getting in trouble for saying vulgar comments but we also had a TLC area for "troubled" kids that caused disruptions! I think public schools are a little more lenient and expect kids to speak their minds as long as it doesn't interfere with education purposes.
Kristen Luedke (9:30)
I went to a public high school where school authority was not consistent. If you knew assistant principles, worked with the student activities director or knew any of the security guards, you could pretty much talk your way out of anything. My sophomore year I remember administration trying to put a dress code ban on flip-flops (I know, ridiculous, right?!). This new dress code rule went into effect in August (the beginning of the school year) when summer it's still summer in Texas. I would say for the first week students abided by the 'no flip-flops' guideline, but that didn't last long. Slowly but surely, everyone started wearing flip-flops to school. Needless to say those that did got detention for the day and had to have their parents bring them a pair of closed toed shoes. Even yours truly, rebelled! Apparently this flip-flop rule was for the safety of the students. Around mid-September, administration saw how many students had total disregard for this rule so they dropped it.
Ok, I just re-read the question, but I just though I would share that funny story. Anyway, i would say that my school would had pretty lenient authority. In Student Council and Yearbook staff, our advisors trusted us to express our freedoms while still maintaining humility, respect and understanding for ourselves, our school and the student body.
I went to a public high school and the overall authority was pretty strict but it wasn't "lawless" either. Our dress code was very strict because of gang problems. I was given many a warnings for wearing collared shirts that broke the dress code. We had principals and security guards walking the halls to catch skippers. We had cops outside trying to catch people trying to leave the school. And the principal and assistant principal's didn't take kindly to anything outside of what was to be expected.
I went to a private school in which we were required to wear a uniform. The uniform policy was strict and any deviation from the designated was punished by write-ups or detention. My school didn't really seem to follow an orthodox measure of discipline. For instance, my friend Josh along with the rest of the tennis team were caught drinking illegaly during an away game and they were given a 3 day in school suspension which required them to clean the restroom floors and polish the chapel's wooden floors. It also seems the schools punishments varied depending on who the students were and what standing they had in standing. In reference to First Amendment rights, I as class president was required to write and say speeches; never was I obligated to have then proof-read or reviewed before giving them. The only time students expressive actions were reviewed was before Halloween, when each class put on a production of their choice. Ideas were to be heard and approved by the principal. Our class was prohibited from adapting a dance scene from Mouli Rouge as a result of that regulation.
First off, I am a student of the public school system and I graduated with an administration that was hard to work with. I was elected to represent the student body and I worked hard to push student issues. I really have a strong distaste in my mouth when people say that High School student body executives are buddy buddy with the principal. My school was so strict that we could not wear t-shirts with graphics on them, we had to wear a name badge around our neck and if you were late two times, you were suspended. I talked with my principal to be able to stop these practices but no solution could be reached. Being a writer for the newspaper in high school, I had fears about what I could and could not write and I believe that it is an infringement on my 1st amendment rights. As we discussed in class, the supreme court has sided too many times with the schools. Students are the new group of individuals that are having their rights taken away by stipulation. I hope for future generations that their rights were be given back to them.
I went to a public high school. Today in class when we were talking about the Hazelwood case and how the school used prior restraint, it sparked a memory. While working on the yearbook my senior year, our principal pulled a photo from one of the proofs we let her see. The photo was of a group of football players dressed in cheerleader uniforms during a pep rally at the school. I remember thinking at the time that it was really lame that she didn't allow the photo to be published, because I felt like it was a memory that should be preserved. She pulled the photo because it showed guys dressed in "drag." Every year the football players dress up this way, everyone laughs and thinks it's great, and then a picture gets put in the yearbook. What I don't understand is why the principal would allow them to dress up this way in the pep rally, but not allow a photograph of it in the yearbook. And why it wasn't a problem before. I guess I should have asked these questions three years ago. Would this be an example of prior restraint?
-Haley Hickey (9:30)
Wow, great stuff so far. Very interesting to hear about your experiences.
Haley -- yes, pulling the photo for the yearbook would be prior restraint. The Hazelwood decision is why the principal could do that. And it does suggest an inconsistency -- if the photo is being pulled because it's offensive, then why is the gag allowed in the first place? Perhaps the principal was worried about the photo in print -- a permanent record that represents an image of the school that would last a lifetime.
I'm in the 9:30 a.m. class.
I went to a public school and, actually, had a blast. But as far as authority goes, the administration definitely held a lot of power over the kiddos. I know that the administration had a lot of say in what pieces would be published in the school newspaper. Dress code had to always be followed, and there was to be no physical looks that were distracting - pink hair, crazy tattoos or piercings, etc. I didn't really find it that bothersome...it's just how it was. In the case we discussed in class, about the boy who was giving a nomination speech for his friend - I agreed with the court when it ruled in favor of the school. Some of the other kids in that auditorium could've been offended, they don't go to school to hear those innuendos (sp?). That's not why they're there. I think school administration has to take into account the other kids who didn't want to be involved in a situation like that. I guess I just feel like it's okay for the rules to be a little more strict in high school than in college.
This is a really touchy subject for me. I had an AWFUL highschool experience! I went to a small town 3A school further south than San Marcos and the administration completely took over the lives of the students as soon as we were on school property. There were metal detectors at the front door. We had to wear ID badges around our necks with our picture and if we were caught without it we were sent to ISS (in school suspention) all day. They eventually took off all the doors to the bathrooms and the stall doors so they could see if drug dealing was going on. What the hell! I felt like the more they did these kinds of things, it just made the students want to rebel even more. I took duel credit courses starting my sophmore year and I had enough credits to graduate early if I chose to. I went and talked to my counselor about it. I said I didn't feel I was being challenged enough in the classroom and I wanted to graduate a year early to start start college. My counselor said "don't do that, every girl that graduates early from high school drops out within their first semester and gets pregnant." I'm still so mad he said that! I graduated early anyway, I got my associates in mass comm by the time I was 18 with a 4.0 and now I'm about to graduate at 20 with a degree in PR. I wish I could go back and show him a piece of my mind now!
Lauren Tuttle
12:30 class
i went to a public high school that definitely had rules that they enforced, such as dress code, etc. but nothing really happened if you violated dress code - other than having to go down to the office and call your parents/change... we never really had cops in the hallways or got in-school suspension or out of school suspension if you violated a rule more than once. and if you did get in to more serious trouble than something minor like dress code then knowing a vice principal helped out.
Rachael Blanton
12:30
The public school that I went to was the metaphorical buckle of the bible belt. It was a public school but it may have been private as it was so far removed from the rest of the town, tucked away in a pocket of middle and upper class white suburbia. Christian values and practices ran rampant in the school and were unchecked. If you didn't go to youth group on Wednesdays, FCA and Sunday school you were basically ostracized by the students and faculty. Therefore, it really came as no surprise when in my junior year i was permanently banned from any school pep rallies as long as I was a student there because I wouldn't bow my head for a "moment of silence." A moment of silence is one thing, but when you directly invoke Jesus Christ the objectivity of the matter is thrown out the window. Needless to say, there was no semblance of free speech in my high school. There were many other instances of censorship and prior restraint and general oppression but what can you really do? If I had been able to file suit then I probably could have turned the administration out on its ear, but without having any resources I pretty much just had my hands tied behind my back. It really felt like my school was trying to groom us to be Bush loving, God fearing, red-blooded Americans and anything outside of that was shutdown firmly and swiftly...
-Brandon Smith T/Th 12:30PM
I, like many others, was very glad to leave high school behind. My school experience wasn't bad, it was just to much standardization, but we will leave that for another class...
I do have a 1st Amendment related story though...
My Junior year, our school newspaper (of which was a editor), had a issue of prior-restraint regarding a article written about our marching band which had just won the State Championship. The article was written by two former band members regarding the training and requirements that they felt were unfair and against UIL rules.
To make a long story short, the Principle told us not to print the article and the newspaper staff went to the school board in protest. At a hearing, a father of a newspaper staff member who was a former State Representative cited 1st Amendment issues and basically said he was going to take legal action if necessary. The next day we were given permission by the School Board to print the article, which by then, had been circulated to other local newspapers and the Austin American Statesman who also printed it and the story about the prior-restraint.
I went to a public high school where the principals were constantly changing. The main principal stayed the same for the 4 years I was there, but we had many different assistant principals. For the most part, the authority was mildly strict but we had a lot of students who would pull pranks and get into fights and sometimes get away with minimal punishment. When I was a senior, a guy in my class went streaking across the football field during homecoming just for the hell of it and obviously got suspended for public indecency. I can't really think of many incidents where first amendment rights were questioned or infringed upon without being in conjunction with another unlawful event (for example, vandalism or public indecency) so I'm not sure which case ruling my HS would have fallen under.
Lindsey Schroeder 12:30 class
I grew up in a small town. It wasn't really small but we did have small town values and small minded people there. I went to a public high school and it just seemed understood what was allowed and what wasn't allowed in our school newspaper. Our school would have taken out anything they felt was inappropriate from the paper.
I grew up in a small town. It wasn't really small but we did have small town values and small minded people there. I went to a public high school and it just seemed understood what was allowed and what wasn't allowed in our school newspaper. Our school would have taken out anything they felt was inappropriate from the paper.
I went to a public high school and it was more along the lines of the Tinker case through my first 3 years but once we got that new principal, it became more like the Hazelwood case where the school kind of cracked down on student's rights to express themselves.
(9:30 class) I went to high school back in the 90's. It was not nearly as strict as some of these other students experiences. I did have a little run-in with the authorities (this may sound strange.) I went to a GWAR concert on a school night. During the show the band members sprayed fake blood out into the crowd. My bleach blonde hair turned pink. The next day at school I got suspended because of it. I was pissed and so were my parents. My principal would not let me back on campus until my hair was back to a natural color. Plano High Schools are in the middle ground between Tinker and Hazelwood. It just depends on how much money your parents donate and if you are in athletics- whether or not rules apply to you. Sad but true.
I went to public school in Spring, Texas which is just north of Houston. I never really put it in perspective that the authority in my schools took away my first amendment rights. There were things that we were able to say and there were things we were not able to say. I remember in middle school, my principal went on a rant about "gangs" and i guess he was really perturb with the thought of having gangs at my middle school. Of course we never had gangs at our school, and half the school had no idea what a gang was. I remember when I was 12, me and a group of girls decided all to wear the color pink to school. Why you may ask? Well we were girls and we thought we were being cute. Well to the principal we were not cute, and we were labeled as a gang. I actually had no idea what he meant by that, and was completely confused. He defined that 3 people who wear the same clothing are considered "gang related" and were sentenced to detention. I guess it had no relation to "a bunch of girls wanting to be cute and wear similar outfits." I was completely traumatized by the whole experience. In highschool I experienced that students did not have the right to their first amendment rights. Even though everyone has the right to "symbolic speech" if anyone at my school every demonstrated such a thing they were given detention. I guess I wasn't educated enough to realize that I have the right to express myself as long as I was not disturbing the learning process of others. I think the major reason why the authorities of the school focus on not letting kids do certain things, and say certain things is because they have to keep order so people can learn.
Katie Lombardi ( 9:30- 10:45)
I don't remember any pressing issues that were different than most other public schools. I do remember all of sudden "opening prayer" at football games turned to a moment of silence. For the most part no one actively exercised any speech that opposed the majority, which was the typical Christian values similar to the school Brandon Smith described. We did have police always on campus and always searching for drugs.
Scott Southerland 12:30
I went to Lake Travis High School outside of Austin, Tx and although the administration tried to put up a tough front, they were really softies.
At my high school, every senior had to start a small business and sell something as an economics project and the principal let me sell shirts that said "F.T.S." on the front and "Seniors 2005" on the back. He knew exactly what "F.T.S." meant (F*ck this sh*t), but let me do it anyway because I told him that parents would be told it meant "Free the seniors". Pretty cool overall.
Honestly, there really weren't any trouble-makers at my school, so we got away with a lot.
Megan Turney (12:30)
I went to a public liberal arts school in Austin; therefore, we had rules, but our First Amendment rights were not limited to school officals. There was not prior restraint on the student newspaper or the theatrical productions. We did have hall monitors, but they were there to only ensure safety. Just recently, my high school's theatre program was set to do a production of RENT, a very controversial play about sex, homosexuality and so. The principal backed the theatre director when the subject went up against the school board. The production was allowed to go on as scheduled and a victory for students' rights!
Andrea Lloyd (12:30)
I attended a public school and there weren't any overly harsh punishments that I noticed. Our school was just like any other when it came to students' right. Although I do remember this one incident when it was Lee/Sterling week, the week our school celebrates the football game against our hometown rival. We decorated the halls inside our school, and every day of the week was a different dress-up day. Well, it was halloween dress-up day and my friend had decided to dress up as bin laden, beard and all. He made it through first and second period, but in between classes he was grabbed by one of the counselors and taken to the principal's office. His only punishment was to go home and change, and also a day of detention. Although at that time I thought our school was wrong for punishing him since it was a funny costume and no big deal, now I feel differently. I feel like my school was pretty lenient on him since other schools probably would have given him a more harsh punishment.
Marsha Mikulencak (12:30)
My high school experience was a little different than most...
I was expelled from my high school for a year for a wrongful application of our school's 'zero tolerance' policy.
I was helping my grandmother move and while hauling boxes of kitchenware, a 10-inch bread knife had fallen out of a box and was laying in the back of my truck. The school security guards found it the next day and I was expelled for one calendar year for possession of an illegal weapon under our school's 'zero-tolerance' policy about drugs and weapons.
The story made it to CNN, the New York Times, LA Times, Reader's Digest, and Playboy magazine even did an article about the unfairness of zero-tolerance regulations that mentioned me. Here's a link to a CNN article:
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/fyi/teachers.ednews/03/20/bread.knife.expulsion.ap/index.html
I was eventually let back in after national media attention, and the ACLU got involved and offered us a lawyer to take the school to a federal court.
Tessa: 9:30am
My high school experience sounds a lot like everyone else. I went to public school in The Woodlands, which was separated into two campuses because there were so many students. I graduated with 1,300 just in my class. So you can imagine how many kids the administrators had to deal with and that's why I think they were quite lenient. THey would try to be strict in the beginning of the school year-dress codes and no piercings or flip-flops, and then about 3 weeks later, they didn't do anything about it. I don't really remember anything major happening that really sticks out but one thing I didn't like was the fact that you had to ask to go to the restroom in the middle of class. I understand because a lot of kids ask to go and then walk around the halls the rest of the period, but at the same time when ya gotta go, ya gotta go.
Tessa Parham
My highschool experience was fairly normal in terms of strictness and enforcement of rules on campus. I went to Anderson H.S. in Austin and it was a 4A public school at the time. Anderson had a reputation for being the only school in the district to offer the IB program so our faculty were granted leniencey in the content of their teaching. One of our main english projects one year was to do a report on a book from the list of banned books in public schools. So, I would say that my high school would be in large favor of the First Amendment.
At the time, it did not seem to be a real problem to me. Now that I think about it, our high school was pretty strict. I went to a 2A high school. My hometown has about 2000 residents. The views of town are pretty conservative and so the school reflected those veiws. We did not have police officers or metal detectors. However, we did have a strict dress code. The only instance that I can remember is when my English teacher was very upset because they banned some historically important books because of the graphic detail. I know that rules were strict and they were enforced. However, I don't remember a lot of people objecting to them and if they did I just thought they should be punished. At the time, I believed the rules were put there for a reason and they should be followed.
No questions asked.
Eizabeth J. 9:30 class
I disagree with justice Stevens in his majority opinion in the Santa Fe Independent School District v. Doe case of 2000. He basically says that the events of a school-sponsored football game were public and on government property, and therefore a student (private) elected chaplin delivering (private) prayer in a public forum is an unconstitutional establishment of religion.
How is this govt. speech endorsing religion because of it’s forum. I can go out in public on govt. property all day long and preach whatever religion I choose. I agree with Rehnquist dissent pointing out the difference between govt. speech endorsing religion (forbid by the establishment clause) and private speech endorsing religion (protected by free speech and free exercise clause). Because this is privately elected and voted on by the student body it is clearly not govt. endorsed simply because of its takes place on govt. property in a public forum.
I think this has to be looked at with precedent of the Hazelwood case and then the school would be left with the authority to determine if a disturbance occurs from the private speech.
Scott Southerland 12:30
i had the opportunity to attend both public and private school. the rules and regulations were certainly more structured and enforced at the private level, and much more liberal and laid back at the public high school. i wrote like a book before but for some reason it didnt post. basically, i feel as if the rules were spelled out equally in both environments, but their interpretation was different.
I went to a public high school in Fort Worth. My experience there was that up a stereotypical high school on a sitcom. as an athlete I got special treatment and I was friends with most of the administrators, and I by the time I was a senior I pretty much had the freedom to come and go as I pleased. I cant complain, the social activity of my high school taught me a lot about networking and I actually had many good teachers.
I attended a public school in the suburbs north of Dallas and for the most part it wasn't too terribly strict. They had plenty of dress code rules and conduct rules but they weren't always consistently enforced. As far as free speech went, we never really had that many problems that I was aware of concerning the issue. I think more students chose to use symbolic speech through their clothing styles, hair styles, etc...
Personally I got away with dress code violations because I wasn't really that big of a disruption and was cool with my principal. It really came down to how you acted as to whether they were strict with you or not.
Well, where should I start? I attended both a private and a public high school. I went to a very strict private school. Not only did we have to wear uniforms, but we also could not wear makeup unless it was natural and could only have natural-colored hair. We were also not only monitored at school, but had to sign a document stating that we would not participate in parties that had alcohol, drugs, etc. outside of school. I was actually suspended just for attending a party outside of school. The school found out from a parent that there was alcohol at the party and suspended everyone that they knew had gone. I was suspended at home for three days and got zeros on all my work. (For the record, I was a freshman and had never touched alcohol in my life.) This is why I transferred to public school! My public school experience was very different however. Although we had a dress code, we were allowed to express ourselves in the things that we wore. Uniforms were not an option. The administration could care less what students did outside of school premises. I thought my public school was pretty relaxed. But, maybe this is because of the private school I went to before!
Lindsey Kimmons 9:30
I went to a public school and wrote for my high school paper. I don't remember being controlled in any way but then again I don't remember writing anything controversial either. For the most part I felt our student paper was a forum were student expression was encouraged and accepted. On a side note, I remember walking out of the bathroom and the vice-principal walking up to me and asking me to step back inside. Apparently someone had reported that there was smoke coming from inside and he wanted to see the contents of my backpack. At first I refused because I didn't feel he had the right to search my stuff. He said that constitutional rights did not extend to school campus and I had no choice in the matter. I never though to look into that and it was something I believed until we started studying this chapter.
I attended Dripping Springs High School, a public school. I can't really think of any incidents that happened in my 4 years there that would relate to any of the cases we've been studying. The school more closely resembled what the Supreme Court envisioned in Tinker. The school had a good mix of liberals, conservatives, and independents, and the school did not regulate how we expressed our opinions, as long as they met the normal guidelines you see in most schools.
I went to a public school in Austin. I was an editor for the student-produced newspaper and I found the administration to be very open. We never had any problems with censorship, and in most cases, teachers, and even principals were often available to participate in interviews when the subject matter was questionable.
I'd say that all in all, my First Amendment rights were upheld at all times in high school.
Jayna Love 12:30
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